story detail

	Pikk a side A) the girl wearing the fetus t-shirt B) the school A mom made her 7th grade kid wear a fetus pro-life t-shirt and the school made her change. the mom is suing. the pictures on the shirt were fetuses. who's right? click the link for details.
A A
B B
14 Pikks
	Tags: Abortion Free_speech Crazymoms Watch These Tags Enter tags to watch, separate with commas, type slowly for suggestions:
	13 comments
posted by:	kapauldo

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comments

Posted by onionheadhat about 1 year ago:

Posted by kapauldo about 1 year ago:

	i have to choose free speech. even though the mom is crazy to make her kid wear an abortion shirt to school, she is correct that these are the same pictures that are in science text books. it's her mom's right to make her kid wear an abortion shirt. free speech trumps crazymom. [QUOTE]

Posted by sjchugh about 1 year ago:

	@kapauldo said:"i have to choose free speech. even though the mom is crazy to make her kid wear an abortion shirt to school, she is correct that these are the same pictures that are in science text books. it's her mom's right to make her kid wear an abortion shirt. free speech trumps crazymom." disagree but i like your acknowledgement that the mom made her kid wear the shirt. funny stuff. [QUOTE]

Posted by biggin105 about 1 year ago:

	tho i think this mite be a disgusting looking shirt we do have free speech in this country and this is not so bad [QUOTE]

Posted by randyc about 1 year ago:

	do children have the right to free speech in school? that's not obvious to me. children are subject to the natural authority of their parents who agree to submit to the contractual authority of the school. this is a reasonable and just attenuation of the kid's right to free speech. besides, don't wear a friggin fetus shirt to school. [QUOTE]

Posted by onionheadhat about 1 year ago:

	schools are allowed to enforce dress codes. if a school can forbid "gang colors", cross dressing, and - the mother of all evil - hats, they can (and in my opinion, should) ban this t-shirt. it is provocative in a non-productive way. wear the shirt before and after school in the mall and on the streets, but not in school. [QUOTE]

Posted by kapauldo about 1 year ago:

	i think the mom has a logical point about the pictures being in the science text book. i suspect she's right and therefore she has the right to make her daughter wear the abortion shirt. if it's against the dress code for politics, then i think i have a problem with that. so it passes the decency test and i object to any attempt to thwart political expression. under which (decency or political expression) do you pikk the school? or is there a 3rd i'm missing? [QUOTE]

Posted by randyc about 1 year ago:

	decency is context dependent. it's why i can't wear a bikini to the office. in a text book the fetus is an anatomy lesson, on a t-shirt it's a shock tactic intended to disgust, disrupt, and evoke an emotional reaction. (evoke is a word right?). so it fails decency, see the bikini example. the 3rd that you're missing is the forfeiture of certain parental rights when engaging in the social contract of public education. we agree to cede whatever authority is necessary (and only what is necessary) to the appropriate officers to ensure an environment conducive to learning and social and intellectual development more generally. this includes the right to ban disruptive behavior, t-shirts, yamakas, burkas, and cross necklaces. your thoughts? [QUOTE]

Posted by kapauldo about 1 year ago:

	hmmm... let's drop the first 2 and focus on the 3rd, because that's the only one i see as debatable. are shocking t-shirts always disruptive? should all shocking t-shirts be banned? i don't think so. i mean, isn't abortion and a discussion about it stimulating and supportive of social and intellectual development? the topic challenges us to see if we can debate non-violently. even if that's a bit contrived, then is it a majority or simple plurality that gets to determine what's shocking? because if you ban fetuses, then i ban burqas, if i ban burqas then you ban crosses around the neck, and so on. so, i believe that this shirt is not shocking enough to be disruptive of education and social development, where say, something sexual, like wearing a naked lady shirt, or wearing lingerie to school is genuinely disruptive. so i guess the litmus test is, is this shocking enough to disrupt education? and i think it is not. it is emotional, it is most definitely lame to make your kid wear an abortion shirt, but i don't think it's disruptive to education. [QUOTE]

Posted by randyc about 1 year ago:

	well if you accept the premise that parent's cede authority to schools to determine what's disruptive and what's not, then judging their judgment is simply an empirical issue. in other words if disruption is observed and causality can be assigned to the t-shirt then the debate is over. there is clearly enough of an uproar to have spilled over to pikk, so i think it's clearly a disruption and the banning of fetus t-shirts is justified. now obviously there is more to the general question of authority than this. if burkas cause disruption because we hate muslims, then i don't think anyone would think banning burkas is just in any sense, but that's slightly outside the scope of this argument i think. [QUOTE]

Posted by kapauldo about 1 year ago:

	@randyc said:"it's clearly a disruption" this is the debate. it's not clearly a disruption. it very well might be the principal's emotional reaction. if it was disruptive, i'll change my vote, but a picture of a fetus is not in and of itself grounds for sending home the kid and making her change out of the abortion shirt her mom mad her wear. i saw no evidence of a disruption, and this is why it's a freedom issue. because you don't get to censor what my mom makes me wear just because you disagree with what it says. [QUOTE]

Posted by randyc about 1 year ago:

	@kapauldo said:" randyc said:"it's clearly a disruption" this is the debate. " i understand that this is the debate, that's why i supported my statement with the premise of empirical corroboration and evidence to that effect. you just plucked my conclusion out of context and went to town as you always do. [QUOTE]

Posted by KapauldoFan about 1 year ago:

	What is it about the Relious Right and our effing kids??? Go hog wild, on blogs, picket lines and the myriad other vehicles we have for free speech. But in environments where our children are a captive audience, shut the F up. [QUOTE]

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